Faith and Certainty

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[this is good]
Thanks for adding that "h" in your mentally incompetent "John".

I've come to this conclusion a while ago, but was never able to trace back the thought process like this. I'd get so frustrated that most people are so afraid of admitting even the idea that religion could, itself, raise doubt in the traditional idea of God. It's kind of an ironic eureka moment to understand that the immutable certainty that is claimed actually hides the very doubt they would never admit.
I got tired of hearing the word faith used as though it was something better than certainty. Faith tends to put something beyond doubt for most people. It's a statement against which there doesn't appear to be an argument and religion has made hay with it for centuries. I was trying to show that faith ain't all it's cracked up to be. I'm still stuck on the notion that language is the harbinger of religion. That religion can't exist without it. I'm becoming interested in the whole idea that there was a first language that all languages evolved from. It's the Tower of Babel idea except there was no tower.
[this is good]
It's sad that even Christians don't understand what faith means. They use it as an excuse to hold an irrational or implausible preposition as true in order to *bolster* their own security and certainty. It is the business of *feeling* certain that much of mainstream religion is about.

Interestingly enough though, at the heart of Christianity is a recommendation to shed security, leave yourself vulnerable and heart-breakingly honest. And it is said that there is no reason to fear it, and that the truth will set you free.
Excellent comment! You point out something that I was pondering--that faith may be the equivalent of an emotional "blankie." But in light of that I have to admit that I don't follow your second paragraph about shedding security.
Faith *is* an emotional blankie for a lot of people, unfortunately. It is fear of uncertainty, fear of insecurity that leads people to grasp tightly to their precious intellectual (or not so much, heh) propositions.

But to make my second point clearer...that is not what faith is really supposed to be about. Jesus constantly says for us to "be not afraid." Don't act out of fear. Let go. Enter into the uncertainty, the insecurity. You fight it because you fear it, so stop fighting, because there is nothing to fear. And then you actually participate in the process of self-transformation and growth, rather than forcing your own development into stagnation. True faith means heading into the unknown and the dangerous and the painful, and going to the places in your mind and in your heart that scare you, trusting the process. Trusting "God."
Thanks for your comment. I think I now understand what you were saying. Basically, you're talking about the religious equivalent to how Luke Skywalker was to treat the Force. Unfortunately, I don't see how that's any different than what I was saying about faith. In both instances, there exists the possibility of being wrong. The difference in what you're talking about and what I was talking about is that your version of faith involves taking action, That still leaves open the possibility that someone could come along and convince you that the process you trusted doesn't really result in what you thought it would--for instance, your life doesn't end with some alternate continued state of existence. It just ends like it does for every other biological being. And if that's the case, then talking about faith, your version or mine, means knowing you're talking about something that you yourself believe is only probable and not some mystical state of super knowledge. Whether you let go and act or not doesn't make it any less so.
The way I see it, to have faith is to be able to let go and walk directly into uncertainty...even about whether you should even be having faith in the first place. To have faith is to let go of everything that makes you feel safe and venture willingly into the unknown, facing anything that may come your way instead of running from it. :)
Interesting. Then by your definition, abandoning the comfort afforded by religion is no less an act of faith than is embracing the unknowable God. Would it be fair to say that your position might be stated like, "I have faith there is a God, but I'm not afraid of the possibility that there's not"? Or would it be wrong to say "I have faith there is no God, but I'm not afraid of the possibility that there is"?
For the most part, that is correct. Because of faith, I have tried to walk as close to the truth as I can, trying to perceive the ways in which I'm seeking comfort and eradicate them. This has led me to reject the traditional notion of God completely, but I still wouldn't classify myself as an atheist or even an agnostic, not by any means, in fact.

To me, the question of the existence of God is a rather meaningless one. It seems to be people going in circles arguing that their anthropomorphic *idea* of God *is* the heart of reality, or that it isn't. It's just a concept; it does not accord with reality except by analogy. :)

All of religion with its elaborate cosmologies and metaphysics is, in my opinion, supposed to be a brilliant allegory for our lives and how we might live them most genuinely and most honestly. When you view all the religious myths this way (as spiritual allegory) rather than take them as historical fact...all of a sudden they become much more powerful and a million times more relevant.
Interesting again. It sounds like we're not far from each other's opinions. I hope others will chime in.
I see what you're saying, but I wonder if the comparison of certainty and faith is a comparison of apples and oranges. Those who maintain a faith may have that probability of being wrong, but it seems completely irrelevant. Faith is not a question of wrong or right, probable or improbable. It is a matter of is or is not. Therein lies is power and its danger. Certainty seems to exist on a spectrum of probability. The sun rising in the east is very far along the certainty side of the spectrum. Brian waking up refreshed tomorrow is probably somewhere closer to uncertainty. But, with faith these levels of gradation simply do not exist. For some, gay marriage is wrong because it says so in the Bible.

In a similar way, I think that comparing a math equation to the statement "God exists" is problematic. The equation exists in a logical structure outside of a linguistic system. 1 + 1 = 2 even if these symbols or words "one," "two," and "equals" do not exist. As you've said in previous posts, "God exists" is trapped within its own signification. Both the term "god" and "exist" rely upon a self-supporting system of meaning that prevents it from existing in some transcendent capital-M Meaning.

So, ironically (for someone outside of the faith-system, at least), the absolutism of faith (I don't mean this politically, per se, just absolute right or wrong) is dependent upon its existence within a wholly arbitrary linguistic system. (Of course, you've said all of this before, but it's fun to repeat what other people say.)
Well put. My philosophy master's thesis was going to be on linking certainty to a probability calculus. As for the comparison being like comparing apples and oranges, of course it is. Unfortunately, there are a ton of people who seem to be both color blind and incapable of tasting differences.
Hmmm...

A "certainty" would indicate a 1.0 probability (100% chance) of something happening or being true.
Hmmm...

A "certainty" would indicate a 1.0 probability (100% chance) of something happening or being true. Someone might be willing to accept some probability less than that and still say that they were "certain", and the interesting thing to examine is...how much below, and why?

Regardless, this assumes that those probabilities can be measured or reasonably assessed. If one can control the environment, the variables...essentially design the experiment...then one can measure the outcomes and probabilities. Even clearly defining the parameters and measuring the occurrences can provide hard evidence. In fact, this is how much of our understanding of the world around us (especially in the realm of modern physics) has evolved.

History does not lend itself tp this approach. Much like the vote of a jury, subjective opinions are formed, and the nod is given to the "preponderance of the evidence", or even "beyond a reasonable doubt" if the issue is especially important/critical.

Examining a supernatural phenomenon is more like history than physics. By definition, a supernatural phenomenon is "outside" our current understanding (or ability to understand) the natural world using the tools/ideas currently available. If such events/phenomena aren't repeatable (as historical events are not), they don't lend themselves to examination using the scientific method. One must examine the contextual cues, the supporting evidence, etc. and make a subjective call.

I can't be certain that the Trojan War occurred, but it is certainly possible within the natural laws that I know to exist in the world, and there is sufficient evidence from "The Illiad" for me to believe that at least something of the kind must have occurred. I can't be certain (in terms of "knowing as a true fact") that Christ lived, was crucified, and rose from the grave) either; there is a much greater body of textual and archaeological evidence pointing to the existence of Christ than to the Trojan War, but the supernatural nature of the events in his life don't seem possible given the natural laws as I know them. ...cognitive dissonance...!

Faith then, asserts that "I believe this to be true" when I can't possibly prove whether it is (or is not!) true. I have faith that the Trojan War occurred. I have faith that Christ lived, died, and rose from the dead. The former doesn't seem to be an act of faith because we can envision it happening within our frame of reference...but it is!! The latter seems to be an act of faith because it relies on believing something to be possible that we can't explain...something we might call "miracles".

I guarantee moon landings, aircraft, pain-free dental surgery, electric lights, *blogs*!!!, and a host of other things would be considered "miracles" to pre-Industrial Revolution (or certainly, pre-Renaissance) people...and belief in them would constitute faith of the highest order.

The key difference, of course, is that those things may not have been understood by people of an earlier era, but they were UNDERSTANDABLE...i.e, within human comprehension. The belief in an Almighty Creator forever *outside* the universe and everything in it implies that we can NEVER truly understand/explain/rationalize Him...and this is the essence of faith...that non-repeatable "historical" miracles, in conjunction with the very creation around us, give hints but no proof, and we can never expect to gain that proof while we are still bound to this universe. Ultimately, we either have faith that God exists, even though we have no way to prove this true, or we have faith that God does NOT exist, even though we have no way to prove this true EITHER!

As an aside, the Christian faith asserts that God DID give us means to know Him, at least as much as we can given our human limitations, by direct intervention, inspiration of prophets to write his holy word, and by the sending of his Son (the very essence of Divinity) into the universe in a real, physically present way.

Very interesting. First of all, I think we’re in agreement that the term ‘certainty’ can mean a wide range of things. My Master’s thesis, had I finished it, was going to be on how a probability calculus could be applied to epistemology. What made it so difficult was that the meaning of words, statements of knowledge, change from context to context, person to person. And you’re absolutely right, the real interesting question is how do we get to the point where we say that the probability of X is 0.7 so it can’t be certainty while the probability of Y is 0.71 and it can be considered to be certain. So, as you point out, being certain that light travels at 186,000 miles per second means something different than being certain that there was a Peloponnesian War. Yet, someone could say that they’re not so certain that light travels at 186,000 miles per second and that could be a perfectly meaningful statement. ‘Certainty’ morphs between being a statement on the strength of evidence and a statement on the strength of belief.

But at some point, even the use of ‘certainty’ as a statement of belief fall flat. Take for example the statement, “I’m certain that gravity will hold me to the ground.” Stop and think about hearing this sentence being spoken. You’d think the speaker was making a joke or something. It’s so universally accepted that to state it as a serious statement really makes no sense in any context other than as a joke. Now imagine someone saying, “I’m certain there is a supreme being called God.” This seems to make perfect sense. I could easily imagine someone saying that. Why? Epistemology is fascinating stuff.

Before I get back to the central issue, you talked about the Trojan War and the life of Christ and cited that your belief in those “historical” events was the evidence found in the Iliad and the Bible. Homer also talks of supernatural beings, the Cyclops and Hydra for instance. Can we claim to know them like we know the Trojan War? I don’t think so. We have no evidence that anything like those existed in the past except that Homer talked about them, that and some paintings and such. They have no comparable basis in our present reality so we discount them as fiction. They’re supernatural. So, there are many things in the Bible that fall into the same category. God parting the Red Sea, Jesus walking on water and raising the dead, etc. These are things that have no basis in our current reality. That’s why we call them miracles. How is it that these events are accorded a higher status, miracles vs. myth, than those supernatural events in the Iliad?

Now, to the crux of the matter—faith as a state of knowledge about something that’s fundamentally unprovable. Faith seems to be one of those chameleon words. It can mean whatever we want it to. You pointed out that we have faith in some things partially based on the evidence that’s available and yet we don’t expect in our lifetimes to be presented with compelling evidence to elevate the faith to knowledge. That’s interesting. We can have faith of something in the future—I have faith the stock market will recover—and that’s based on the full expectation that at some point the evidence will show the faith grounded or ungrounded. Or, as you mentioned, we could have faith in something entirely incapable of ever being explained or proved. It just so happens that this particular sort of faith wants its adherents to forego any semblance of doubt whatsoever. So, the justification for faith in the first instance is the existence of some evidence that leads us to believe something. When you ask someone if there’s any possibility for doubt, they would likely say, “Sure, but I believe it more than I doubt it.” In the second instance, faith is more like a gamble. You’re betting on an outcome and some evidence will determine that outcome. In the third case, you, yourself, admit that there is nothing within the realms of evidence that can justify the faith. Instead, the faith is based on inferences taken from various sources. You know the status of inference in logic. My question for you is, how did you come to have this faith? Not how do you justify it now, what was its genesis and how did it grow to where it is now.

What I’m now getting interested in is the genealogy of religion—religious anthropology if you will. Religion, religious thought, is a largely linguistic endeavor. Religion doesn’t spread without proselytizing and proselytizing doesn’t happen without language. Let’s assume for a minute that there was one person, let’s call her Lucy, who first had the idea there was a supreme being. She convinces someone who convinces someone and so on and so on until we’re where we are today. Along the way, people change the notion of the supreme being that Lucy started based on their contexts and needs until today’s concept is nearly nothing like the original idea Lucy had. What allows that to happen? What’s to say our idea is any better than Lucy’s.

Enough for now.

Well...something rather depressing just happened...I spent 45 minutes composing a reply, and it just got dumped...! :( I doubt I'll be able to re-create my thoughts either...

Well, maybe tomorrow.

45 minutes?!?!? Holy cow!

OK. I'll look for it tomorrow after work.

Replace the phrase "I have faith that..." with the statement "I act as if [proposition] is true."

You sound Wittgenstinian Brad. Let me think about it today and I'll have some comments this afternoon.

Brad, I'm going to reply with a new post called Faith and Action. I hope you find it. I'm not entirely finished with it, but getting close.

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smcallister

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